File Countdown not present in Copy from IPTC to XMP feature

[coz]

Bogdan,

The file countdown feature in the bottom left does not appear when using Copy from IPTC to XMP feature.   If you have a large number of files, it appears to hang and when you click on the window, it then states "Not Responding", which seems to reinforce the perception that it has hung.   Nevertheless, it does process the command and gives you a message that files were updated when it finishes. 

Also, the last copy tag selection in the "Copy from IPTC to XMP" window states:  "Instructions, DateCreated".   I don't see a DateCreated in the IPTC area, or even in the "^" pop-up window - only in Exif & XMP areas, and such dates are not copied over from Exif into the XMP data.   Am I missing something in the IPTC area?

Thanks,
Chris

[BogdanH]

Hi Chris,

You're right: I wasn't carefull enough on this operation (when "counter" was implemented). Will be fixed in next update.

Tag DateCreated exist in both sections: Xmp and Iptc (see http://www.exiftool.org/TagNames/IPTC.html).
However in Xmp and Iptc (as you can see from documentations), those two tags haven't equal "capability":
Xmp:DateCreated -can contain "partial" values (i.e. date only, or date+time..),
Iptc:DateCreated -can contain date only (for time part, there's separate TimeCreated tag in Iptc).

Now, as I usually say: "world is moving to Xmp"... hence, I'm not planning to implement new Iptc features (i.e. directly editing Iptc:DateCreated & Iptc:TimeCreated tags).
As you can see, by using XMP: copy data from IPTC, you can, among others, copy at least DateCreated (if it exist in Iptc). But if you realy need to move TimeCreated from Iptc to Xmp as well, then I suggest you to read here:
https://exiftool.org/gui/#b_etdirect
-look at "Using args files" -last paragraph.

Thank you for notifying me about a bug 

Bogdan

[coz]

Bogdan,

No problem with the bug report.  I am still in awe over what you and Phil can do and how responsive you are to suggestions.  I wish the consultants we have working on our system at work were as good!

Thanks for explaining the IPTC tags.  I am somewhat "tag challenged" but if I understand you, ExifTool cannot add or edit IPTC DateCreated but the Copy feature "Instructions, DateCreated" will copy the info from IPTC to XMP if it already exists.  Apparantely my Canon 50D does not populate this tag (or perhaps any IPTC tag).  I understand your approach of not spending any more time on IPTC features.   For some reason I had always run ExifTool with IPTC in Quick View in lieu of XMP.   

Looking over the XMP tags in Quick View I can use that for country, location, keywords, etc. but the XMP:DateCreated value has me stumped.  If I select multiple files, it appears that a value entry in this field will result in all files being updated with the same value.  In lieu of this, is it possible to include the "-copy Exif:CreateDate" that is in the "^" Main pop-up window within the Quick View window?   This would eliminate the need to run multilple ExifTool "Save" processes to first set the other values and then copy this date.   That would help save some time since I already run separate processes on multiple files to shift date/time (forgot to change camera settings for Standard Time!), copy LensInfo from Makers Notes, and then Geotag.

Thanks again,
Chris

[BogdanH]

Hi Chris,

So I don't forget: ExidTool can directly change or create any Iptc tag -it is GUI, that doesn't have all those options implemented. And yes, if using that menu option, GUI will copy Iptc:DateCreated to Xmp:DateCreated only, if that tag value allready exis there (i.e. because some another software put it there).
No, Canon doesn't write data into Iptc (and probably never will). Xmp area is used instead -what you can easy check with GUI. I have implemented few Iptc tags in Quick view, because some users wished that (maybe because of historical reasons).
Of course, if you put/edit some value in QuickView field (i.e. Xmp:DateCreated), then that value will be saved in all selected files.
I don't know why you wish to have DateTime, which is allready in Exif, in Xmp as well... but if there's a reason, then you should use ^ Xmp popup form for complete Xmp editing -there's an option to automatically copy DateTime from Exif. However, if your Exif DateTime's are wrong, you should shift those values first.
It is impossible to make a (universal) form, which would suit needs of all users. So, more than one process will be needed most of the time. How many processes? It depends on what you need. -i.e. do you really need the same DateTime values in Exif, Iptc and in Xmp?

Bogdan

[coz]

Bogdan,

Yes, I meant to state ExiFTool GUI regarding With respect to the DateCreated in Exif, XMP, and IPTC, I guess I was being overly cautious since I don't know which applications read what fields (now and in the future).  For example, if having the date in Exif is sufficient, then why are there identical tags in both XMP and IPTC?

[Phil Harvey]

This is the nature of the evolving metadata standard.  The Metadata Working Group was created to address issues exactly like this.  They have generated recommendations which I expect more and more software will be using as guidelines to deal with this.

- Phil

[BogdanH]

Hi Cris,

Edited: I just saw Phil posted comment on this. Here's my longer version 

Your last post is great -short, however it directly touches the question of all questions: "how much metadata do I really need to maintain?"

What follows, is my very personal opinion on this topic! -as seen by Bogdan 

As it is now, Exif metadata is here to stay and to be used in the future. All imaging devices (cameras, scanners,...) are populating this area automatically with data of interest. That is, Exif is all about device being used (what device, settings,..) and not about user's data. In Exif, there are few "ment for user" tags (i.e. Artist, Copyright, Software, Description, etc.), but those tags can only tell a short "story" about photo.

What's more important is: every decent photo software shows most of official Exif tags -and, IMO, this won't change in near future. Even further: as it is now, Exif content has priority over Iptc/Xmp!. Meaning: if DateTime values in all those sections (Exif/Iptc/Xmp) differ, DateTime in Exif is taken as valid one. And the same is true for all other tags (camera settings, etc.). Exif is "father" of all metadata, so to speak.

Quite soon, professional photographers (and agencies, etc.) realized, they need more data than Exif can handle. Besides "who took the photo", they needed to keep track (say, database) of: what's on the photo, where photo was taken, specific copyright notices, keywords, etc. So, Iptc metadata standard was made. Not to replace Exif, but to enhance metadata capability. And probably they thougt: we don't care what's in Exif, we just wish to have our own "room" for all the data we wish to have. And among others, they needed (their own) DateTime values as well (to make Iptc specification complete).

To skip details... as things happen, Iptc specification wasn't that perfect after all. And Adobe started to write their own metadata into totally new section, known as Xmp section. Most of metadata there was Adobe specific, i.e. what Adobe product modified image, what/when (DateTime?) editing was done, software settings, etc. All in all, not that interesting for average Joe.
What's important is, Xmp metadata is written as opent text: so metadata is quite easy to read/modify and new tags very easy to implement. There are other Xmp benefits, but I'll mention one very important: metadata values can be saved in any language, because all country specific characters are supported in Xmp shema.
That's how we got Exif, Iptc and Xmp. But the interesting and important part actually starts here...

Iptc (organization, that is) recognized, that Iptc (specification, that is) is quite hard to enhance for future needs. So they recognized the "obvious" solution: they decided to write Iptc metadata into Xmp section as well. And what they needed to do first, was to specify which tags in "old" Iptc section are equal to those in Xmp section, so software could move Iptc data to Xmp section smooth -without user intervention actually.
Yes, today, most software is writting Iptc tags/values automatically into Xmp! Iptc is dead -long live Iptc!
Sometimes I can read "I need to save that Iptc tag, because Photoshop does that too...". Yes, yes. But Iptc tag isn't written into Iptc section -Iptc tag is written into Xmp section.

And that's why I recommend using Xmp section (for Iptc tags, actually) -because everybody started to use it. That is, Iptc section has become obsolete.

Finally, only you know if it's worth (or needed) to have DateTime values (and whatever) all over the place. How many times you wish/need to repeat (in your metadata) when photo was taken?
I actually invented the term for such behaviour: "metadata slave ©" 
ExifTool allows you to edit/save any metadata you can imagine -this doesn't mean you should do that in regular basis.

Bogdan

[coz]

Bogdan,

Thanks for that detailed response and saving me from eternal metadata bondage!  Since Exif is king with respect to metadata, then I will definitely avoid the extra step (and perhaps a KB or two) of placing redundant data in the Xmp section. 

Chris

[BogdanH]

Hi Chris,

Maybe I wasn't clear: I don't say you shouldn't use Iptc tags -use them, but save them inside Xmp section!
There are some Exif tags you can and should use (i.e. Artist, Copyright, Gps data, etc), but that probably won't be enough. Just use Xmp section for the rest of the data you wish to save (i.e. Country, City, keywords, etc.) and you'll be fine.

Bogdan

[coz]

Bogdan,

Thanks.  I am pretty sure I will do what your last message indicates.  I will use Exif as the primary means of including info (Date Created, Author, Copyright).   I will not use the IPTC section, but will use IPTC tags in the XMP section for those tags that are not redundant to Exif data (location, country keywords, etc)

Thanks again,
Chris

[BogdanH]

I'm quite sure, this decission will make your "metadata life" much easier in long term.
And if you wish to become more familiar about this topic, I suggest you look in IPTC standard Photo Metadata here:
http://www.iptc.org/std/photometadata/specification/IPTC-PhotoMetadata-201007_1.pdf
-page 9 covers what I was trying to explain.

Bogdan